Supposedly, it is God's will to seek him. But is it necessary to have to chase him? In fact I wonder if it really is possible to seek God. No matter how long I've sought him, I've nevertheless really honestly never found him. And if that's the case, I am drawn to associate the whole "seeking God idea" to chasing desires.
We all have things we desire, after which we chase. Sometimes we grasp them, at other times they remain elusive. Desires, however, are never satisfied. So is their nature. I think "god" or the idea of God, is a desire. We chase after it so much that it even becomes possible to say that we are being led by it, albeit the desire for God itself, has no leading capacities to speak of.
This idea makes me very sceptical of the idea of God in general. Then if God does exist, as free evangelicals believe in him today, then he is a God who chases after them. I don't see this though.
I see well meaning people following their greatest desire and often looking somewhat bewildered with their worship. What I think is crazy, is that theology provides a system of reason to explain away and encourage in the face of this loneliness (lack of direct contact to God). "His grace is sufficient for me", "in my weakness He is stronger" and other mantra, prevent the believer from ever voicing true frustration.
The zenith of modern Christian God experiences, seems to be in "on your face worship" where you come out having felt the "hand of God". But wait, do I have to feel guilty for admitting that I have almost the same feelings at a U2 concert? Damn, Bono must really be Jesus come again.
The point is: where is God in all this? How can I distinguish God from my desires of who I want God to be, if he exists? And if there is a God, shouldn't I be able to say that he chases me, and know it's true. You know, otherwise I start feeling like the uncool teenager who wrote his love a poem and she's always running away, all coy and stuff. That's the kind of BS that creates serial murderers not great worshippers.
I don't know. I'm just sayin'. Thoughts?
- Posted using BlogPress from my iPhone
15 comments:
John, my friend - I have some thoughts I'd love to share with you, but not in a public forum. If you've got an email listed on your Facebook profile, I'll send you a message there. Otherwise, let me know what your address is and we can perhaps catch up while we tackle a big issue or two. :) Speaking of Facebook - I've seen your updates from the past week or so! I hope you're recovery is a swift one!
Hi John,
ich hab mir dein Text durchgelesen und ich bin traurig darüber, dass du dir diese Fragen stellst.
Ich denk besonders in so Situationen wie die in der du grad bist, bringen dich Argumente für Gott nicht weiter. Deswegen kann ich nur erzählen was ich für Erfahrungen gemacht hab.
In meiner ersten handfesten Krise hab ich den Zustand erst gemerkt, als es schon vorbei war. Ich zweifelte Gott an und wenn es ihn überhaupt gäbe, muss er mich hassen. Ich weiß auch nicht mehr was der Auslöser dafür war, aber mit Argumenten bin ich da nicht rausgekommen. Argumenten wie: du bist gesund, deine Grundbedürfnisse waren noch nie in Gefahr standen immer Gegenbeispiele im Weg. Irgendwann hat mich die ganze Fragerei und das Argumentieren mit mir selbst nur noch genervt. Ich hab mir gesagt, dass ich mich entscheiden muss, ob ich an Gott glaube oder nicht. Für mich war das also keine Gefühls-, sondern eine Entscheidungssache.
In meiner zweiten Krise hab ich dann auch nicht mehr an Gott gezweifelt, sondern mich "nur noch" über ihn aufgeregt. Ich hab absolut garnichts gespürt, nur Frust wegen meiner Probleme. Ich weiß nicht genau wie ichs beschreiben soll, aber ein einem bestimmten Punkt hat mich Gott einfach getröstet und ich hatte von jetzt auf gleich keinen Frust, keine Sorgen, nichts...
Lieben Gruß
Rudi M.
Wow, This is great. With over 600 potential readers two comments really isn't that bad.
@Rudi: danke für deine Gedanken. Ich muss dir sagen, dass die Worte aus meinem Post oben, das Ergebnis eines theologischen Kampfes sind, dessen Anfang mindestens acht Jahre zurück liegt. Es ist eigentlich nur so, dass ich zwei Jahr nach meinem Burnout, endlich die Zeit und die Kraft hatte, diese Gedanken mit allen zu teilen. Also, mein Krankenhausaufenthalt trug zu diesen Gedanken nicht bei.
Mir geht's gut hier, wenn auch etwas genervt, dass alles so lange dauert. Würde gern mehr von deinen Gedanke hören.
also ich lieg auch gerade in meinem bett - krank - und das ist auch nicht anlass für mich in zweifel auszubrechen. diesen anlass gab es viel mehr schon viel früher, nämlich in kreisen von christen. ob an gott glauben ne entscheidungssache ist, möchte ich mal stark bezweifeln. dann ist dieser gott nämlich nicht bedingungslos existent - sondern nur in den köpfen derjenigen vorhanden, die sich dafür entschieden haben. na und glaubenskrisen kann man viele haben. aber ich möchte mal in frage stellen, ob eine glaubenskrise überhaupt eine krise ist, wenn man sich nicht elementare fragen stellen darf (ohne dass die vertreter der anderen seite traurig werden) jeder mensch hat private erfahrungen mit gott oder mit dingen, die er gottes verantowrtung zuschreibt. diese privaten erfahrungen kann man teilen und als grundlage eines beweises nehmen. man kann sie aber auch der vernunft (setze hier jedes wort ein, das dir lieber ist) zuordnen. dinge passieren und wenn ich will, dass sie von gott sind, entscheide ich mich dafür. wenn nicht, heißt es dann, dass es keinen gott gibt?
für mich sind ganz andere sachen wichtig, als die klärung der frage ob es gott gibt oder nicht. fest steht, dass es das leben gibt und dass es trotz allem wohlstand, in dem wir leben, harte zeiten gibt. wenn du mit dem glauben an gott besser dran bist, cooL! aber die gefahr ist: arroganz. und diese arroganz, die auf grund der meinung, die einzig richtige religion zu haben, entsteht (die muss sich ja nicht so krass wie bei pastor jones aus florida äußern), führt zu dem gegenteil dessen, was ich selbst als äußersten maßstab für das miteinander halte: liebe deinen nächsten wie dich selbst (und nicht: bekehre deinen nächsten und liebe ihn dann wie dich selbst, weil du dich ja erst selbst lieben kannst, nachdem du einen auftrag erledigt hast, der dir im himmel extra punkte gibt...)
liebe grüße
edgar
Hey John,
ich war mir nicht sicher, ob's was mit der Behandlung zu tun hat, aber dass es sich so lang hingezogen hat, wasste ich nicht.
Also zum Thema Lobpreis hab ich keine U2-Erfahrung, aber Gott als Schöpfer der Musik hat das ja nicht nur zum Lobpreis gemacht, sondern auch eben, um uns gegenseitig damit zu verwöhnen. Beim Lobpreis finde ich einfach nur die Gemeinschaft mit Leuten, die dasselbe glauben wie ich und die denselben Geist wie ich haben, sehr ermutigend.
Du fragst dich, wie du deine Wunschvorstellung vom realen Gott unterscheiden kannst. Stumpf würd ich sagen: Bibel, denn die Bibel hast du ja nicht selbst geschrieben. Gut - Koran auch nicht - aber das ist ja nen anderes Thema.
Wieso sollte Gott uns eigentlich hinterherrennen? Wie meinst du das genau?
Hey Edgar,
lang nicht mehr mit dir diskutiert.
Also dein logischer Zusammenhang zwischen der Existenzfrage und der Glaubenssace erschließt sich mir nicht. Erklär mir das bitte, bevor ich dich falsch verstehe.
Wer sagt dass man sich keine elementare fragen darf? Was ich mich eher frage ist, ob ich mich deiner Meinung nach traurig fühlen darf. Darf ich allgemein meinem Freund oder meinem Nächsten sagen, was ich von seinem Lebensstil halte? Darf ich meinem Kumpel sagen, dass es mich traurig macht, ihn rauchen zu sehen? Oder noch weiter: Liebe ich ihn weniger, wenn ich versuche ihn zu bekehren?
Also ich habe ja allein von meinen Erfahrungen gesprochen und für mich waren es Kreisen. Dass du das infrage stellst, grad wenn du diesen Existenzfragen nicht denselben Stellenwert gibst, zeigt mir, dass du mich noch nicht verstehst.
Die einzige Arroganz, die ich persönlich erlebt hab war nicht von Christen, Moslems, usw.,sondern Atheisten, die mich wegen des Glaubens ausgelacht oder mit Verachtung bedacht haben.
Ich will dich in erster Linie besser verstehen und dich nicht fertig machen Eddi.
Lieben Gruß
Rudi
Jon-
I read your post. It looks like you have become yet another casualty of the evanjellyfish movement. We sure had a lot of fun in college group though, didn't we?
Sarcasm aside, I don't really have a way to get you to see what I see, but in my own life, God makes Himself manifest constantly in big ways and small, through His word, and through life experience (answered prayer), such that I have come to trust Him better than I trust myself (and that is saying a lot). I have confidence that if you are earnest in asking Him to reveal Himself, He will do it. He knows you (He created you) and He knows what you need to see.
I will say that real worship is not sitting in church on Sunday morning and singing the Christian Top 40. Real worship is when God moves in your life such that you are compelled to acknowledge it. I think people try to generate a God feeling by singing cool songs...you are right, U2 has cool songs too. Actually, '40'by U2 is one of my all-time favorites - taken from Psalm 40. "I waited patiently for the LORD, He inclined to me and heard my cry, He brought me up out of the pit, out of the miry clay, and I will sing to Him a new song."
Take Bono's advice, dude (actually David's). Instead of seeking the 'Zenith of modern Christian God experiences', try praying and waiting patiently for Him to incline to you.
Dan
Just because I can watch a great movie on my computer that has nothing to do with Mac doesn't mean Apple didn't make the computer I watch it on. Do you find a Mac by using one? I just think there are some nice parallels to think thru in that context :P
hey john,
sorry for your health problems.
but I feel good for you that you started thinking about God's existence. I personally think that it is better than believing it just because everybody around us do so, without really thinking about it, and surely better than spending the whole life not caring whether he exists or not.
hi again john,
I write here again to comment on some specific parts of your topic so that it would be easier to reply on each one separately.
"How can I distinguish God from my desires of who I want God to be, if he exists?"
I believe that God is whom you think he is.
Just like the world to a human being is how he understands it and feels it, the same applies to God. He is so generous that he fulfills your desires and mines and every ones'.
"Supposedly, it is God's will to seek him. But is it necessary to have to chase him? In fact I wonder if it really is possible to seek God. No matter how long I've sought him, I've nevertheless really honestly never found him."
what do you mean here by chasing and finding?
I can understand two chased concepts here:
- to know him (mentally believe in his existence).
- to feel him.
my opinion is that knowing him is a necessity that has to be proven once and probably reviewed once a while, but feeling him is just something optional (luxus if you prefer) that can help sometimes. So if you have proved his existence once, you can always count on your belief even in the periods that you do not feel him at all. Anyway our human feelings are temporary and can be affected by everything happens in our complex environment, but the sound mental belief can understand any surrounding circumstances.
Dan: I like the evenjellyfish thing! That was silly.
Yeah, I can't stand evangelicals, and Christians are even worse. God makes much more sense to me than anything I've ever been taught about him or have taught to others.
I'm sure I know what real worship is: I just haven't found what I'm looking for yet ;-). Every time I step into a church I feel like I'm taking part in a show where I already know the outcome. At the end of it, I'm going to be the guy who has to purge something from my life to get closer to the almighty. Why would I want a god who only wants to let me in on his inside secrets, if I follow his magic code, which seems to change from week to week depending on the schmuck who's exegeting (sic). That just sounds disgusting. ;-)
Even if there happens to be a preacher who delivers some really good stuff, I have to be scared of his followers who are generally suffering from some kind of psychosis that makes them somehow nonhuman. They ask you stuff like: "what's Jesus doing in your life", or "we're brothers in Christ". Reassuring words to those who share the same psychosis, disheartening for those who merely wish someone would say: "Hey dude! WTF, it's nice to see you!"
Okay, I am overdoing it here, simply to force a point: I realize that I was that guy for a lot of years doing all of the above and condemning people for not doing the same (at least in my heart). Now, I "desire" to get away from all that and the funny thing I'm finding is that God doesn't really care where I am, he keeps finding me. Even at a U2 concert (they had a great show in Munich on Wednesday). And to complicate matters, I'm not sure if it really is God, cause I don't know what God looks like anymore, but none of that seems to be of any consequence, because no one knows what the hell he looks like anyway! :-)
Deyaa:
"...surely better than spending the whole life not caring whether he exists or not..."
most definitely. I have my problems nevertheless, with people who think they know what god looks like and how to find him and try and make others live the same way. I experience God as being much more confounding and open to sincere hearts than to a certain way of believing, as you mention in one of your other comments above.
Deyaa:
"...Just like the world to a human being is how he understands it and feels it, the same applies to God. He is so generous that he fulfills your desires and mines and every ones'..."
This is great! Thanks for that. Just as God makes it shine on the righteous and the wicked. This was a hard lesson for me to learn. God is beautiful, not because we say he is, but because he knows the desires of all our hearts and fulfills them, even if our neighbor might think the fulfillment of that desire was "against the will of God". He doesn't care what I think his will is. And I like this, because since I've begun to understand this, I've been able to live much more freely, realizing he is big enough to deal with my life, even if Christianity is not.
Deyaa:
"...Anyway our human feelings are temporary and can be affected by everything happens in our complex environment, but the sound mental belief can understand any surrounding circumstances..."
My problem, in the last few years, has been that my basis for believing in God was destroyed. The evidence I based my belief in God on, was ruined. So I had to start over knowing him again. I do not want to say that I know him now. As mentioned above, I think I understand him better now. Though I still struggle with the thought that I may just be fooling myself and perhaps the God I am getting to know better, is really simply just me coming to terms with my own humanity (psychosis, neurosis etc.), and no longer trying to excuse it.
Hey John,
just wanted to let you know that i'm at the same spot (more or less) like you, thinkin similar thoughts, contemplateing bout same stuff! ;-)
your former neighbor!
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